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back to article Oracle's Java price hikes push CIOs to brew new licensing strategies

Avoiding steep price hikes in Oracle Java licensing has become an issue for CIOs, according to a software asset management expert. Organizations looking to avoid Oracle Java licensing hikes introduced nearly two years ago may save nearly 50 percent of their expected costs by moving to alternatives, said Martin Thompson, …

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  1. Caspian Prince
    Mushroom

    What sort of CIO exactly has sat on this for a all this time and done sweet FA about it? The move to OpenJDK should have been done a decade ago. There are *no* excuses. *No* reasons not to have done it. Don't come bullshitting about compliance or compatibility - because it is just that, bullshit. Do your goddammed jobs. Or perhaps, GTFO and let somebody who has a clue run the show instead.

    64 4 Reply
    1. m4r35n357 Silver badge
      Reply Icon

      Yep, idiots one and all!

      Fire the bastards.

      More generally, Oracle are costing UK taxpayers dearly. The government needs to nuke them from orbit.

      29 0 Reply
      1. Vader
        Reply Icon

        The UK government hasn't got the balls to kick them into orbit.

        8 0 Reply
      2. Charlie Clark Silver badge
        Reply Icon

        Thick brown envelopes do wonders for gravity…

        3 0 Reply
    2. Anonymous Coward
      Reply Icon
      Anonymous Coward

      When poop his the fan who do you blame? Better to blame one Oracle than the community contributors and maintainers.

      Who owns the trademark to open jdk . What if we call JavaScript openjdkscript?

      4 4 Reply
    3. Steve Channell
      Reply Icon
      Facepalm

      "Support" contracts + discounts

      Anybody who didn't switch from Oracle when they bought Sum Microsystems deserves it, but if you're tied into Oracle database, WebLogic or Oracle Financials, the cost of the Java subscription is discounted and a small part of the overall cost - Oracle has a mantra "prices never go down". If you switch to OpenJDK, your discount tier will go down to compensate, and any financial institution will forced to pay "support" subscriptions to another provider to offset operational risk "insurance" (that after all is how RedHat makes money).

      sure, no one ever needs the "support", doesn't make it a complete waste of money

      7 2 Reply
    4. Anonymous Coward
      Reply Icon
      Anonymous Coward

      When I joined my previous employer, it had Oracle databases and other Oracle tools everywhere, though for Java we used RedHat (at least on servers). Because of Oracle fucking the company over on licensing, around the time I joined in 2015, the decision was made to move away from Oracle entirely. Because of how ingrained and intertwined Oracle databases were in all our systems, it took a long time, but eventually we got there.

      Migrating from Oracle Java to any of the other OpenJDK based distributions is rather simple in comparison, and bar using specific commercial features (which are not in the language itself, but mostly surrounding monitoring, or special garbage collection or tuning options), is basically "uninstall Oracle Java, install the same/similar Java from other vendor", and you're done.

      5 0 Reply
  2. Fred Daggy Silver badge
    Devil

    The devil you know ... ?

    The only decision about Oracle (any product) is No. The actual decision is get rid of today, or yesterday.

    (Don't do deals with the devil).

    53 0 Reply
    1. seven of five Silver badge
      Reply Icon

      Re: The devil you know ... ?

      Oh, stop being mean to the devil.

      14 0 Reply
      1. b0llchit Silver badge
        Reply Icon
        Devil

        Re: The devil you know ... ?

        No! The Devil thrives on Mean! Be Meaner!

        8 0 Reply
  3. hittitezombie

    If your CIO hasn't already looked at this mess and haven't gone 'WHAT THE FSCK IS WRONG WITH ORACLE!?! SWITCH TO OPENJDK NOW!", then they need to resign now.

    21 0 Reply
    1. ForthIsNotDead
      Reply Icon
      Unhappy

      It's more complicated than that. If the organisation is using Oracle DB, then the overall JDK costs are not very significant at all as they are heavily discounted. However, if you move away from Oracle JDK, you'll suddenly find your Oracle DB costs explode. Because... Oracle. What they _should_ be doing is getting rid of both Oracle JDK and Oracle DB. But that's a much larger system migration project, and who has the balls to go there?

      8 1 Reply
      1. Charlie Clark Silver badge
        Reply Icon

        Oracle to Postgres migrations have been possible for years – won't always work, of course – but you can get professional support if you're interested. And, of course, since Amazon did the same thing the other year, it's also happy to help.

        The process for any reasonably maintained* environment will be the same: check whether particular features are available on the target platform; define performance metrics; see what works automatically (could be most) and what needs to be done. In 2010 this might have been considered risky, but now I think there are plenty of examples showing that it's fairly straightforward and things often work better than before.

        * Yes, I know that PoS that was done by cheapr outsourced from contractors a few years ago might be a bit of a challenge.

        1 0 Reply
      2. Alan Brown Silver badge
        Reply Icon

        "If the organisation is using Oracle DB"

        Then it's probably already in deep trouble

        (Oracle DB works well as a database. The problems all crop up when Oracle sells you "solutions" built around it)

        As many others have said, PgSQL works almost as well as Oracle (if not the same for most applications)

        0 0 Reply
  4. xylifyx

    OpenJDK is also Oracle

    Just with a different license. It is unsupported, use a derivative like AdoptOpenJDK or Corretto.

    1 23 Reply
    1. CowHorseFrog
      Reply Icon

      Re: OpenJDK is also Oracle

      In the world of leadership its all about labels and names.

      THey (leadership) only have their position because they gave themselves a label, and they also want others to think or perhaps they fail to understand all java version binaries are the same, only the label changes.

      0 6 Reply
    2. Anonymous Coward
      Reply Icon
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: OpenJDK is also Oracle

      "OpenJDK is also Oracle. Just with a different license."

      Yes, one that says you don't have to pay them to use it. That's a VERY different license. And what exactly do you mean by "unsupported"?

      5 0 Reply
      1. Avalanche
        Reply Icon

        Re: OpenJDK is also Oracle

        I guess they're referring to the OpenJDK reference builds, which are not the same thing as the OpenJDK builds of various vendors, which are supported.

        1 0 Reply
    3. Avalanche
      Reply Icon

      Re: OpenJDK is also Oracle

      There are a lot of vendors, like Azul, RedHat, and others, that offer commercial support for their builds of OpenJDK.

      2 0 Reply
  5. Anonymous Crowbar

    We migrated thousands of Java and while we were at it removed every Oracle product we had over the last few years. When they came to screw us on renewals their sales drones was shocked when we went from thousands of DB cores, thousands of java, and thousands of other ancillary services to 4 oracle cores [application couldnt be moved in time] the lock of shock was enjoyable as he realised his massive bonus just got fucked.

    It was a big project that took 18 months, but had buy in from all the teams. In the end we moved to Corretto [we have a large AWS estate so made sense] rather than openJDK, but TBH it is much of a muchness.

    Fuck Oracle.

    49 0 Reply
    1. Stu J
      Reply Icon

      Please tell me you have video evidence of their reaction...!?

      11 0 Reply
    2. Avalanche
      Reply Icon

      Corretto *is* OpenJDK.

      4 0 Reply
  6. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Java alternatives

    Aren't there any other stuff like html5 that can replace Java rollers

    0 15 Reply
    1. TheMajectic
      Reply Icon

      Re: Java alternatives

      I think you're thinking that Java is the same as JavaScript, it's not the same thing. Even though Oracle currently owns the trademark to JavaScript, Java being talked about here is primarily backend and HTML5 with JavaScript is front end exclusively

      14 0 Reply
      1. katrinab Silver badge
        Reply Icon
        Alert

        Re: Java alternatives

        Javascript is on the backend as well now, in the form of NodeJS / Bun / Deno.

        No, I don't know why anyone would want to do that. I suspect the people behind it only thought about whether they could rather than whether they should.

        6 1 Reply
  7. CowHorseFrog

    How come we never hear about businesses complaning about the millions they pay for leadership ?

    4 2 Reply
  8. Darkk

    Why still using Java of any kind?

    Why we even using Java these days when there's HTML5? Can't tell you how PITA it is dealing with older version of Java on Dell's iDRAC that I have to resort to hacks to make it work.

    1 16 Reply
    1. katrinab Silver badge
      Reply Icon

      Re: Why still using Java of any kind?

      Java is mostly used on the backend these days.

      11 0 Reply
      1. Anonymous Coward
        Reply Icon
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: Why still using Java of any kind?

        It's also used for non-web software, like LibreOffice.

        5 0 Reply
        1. Avalanche
          Reply Icon

          Re: Why still using Java of any kind?

          LibreOffice is largely C++ as far as I know, only some of the internals are using Java (a leftover from when StarOffice/OpenOffice was owned by Sun).

          2 0 Reply
          1. Charlie Clark Silver badge
            Reply Icon

            Re: Why still using Java of any kind?

            The Java code was largely replaced by Python because the developers were worried about what Oracle might do. Even though I prefer Python, I don't think this was necessary – it's still in OpenOffice – and it took a lot of resources. Still, that's one of the points of open source to be able to change the implementation details for any reason.

            0 0 Reply
    2. CowHorseFrog
      Reply Icon

      Re: Why still using Java of any kind?

      Applets have been dead for over 20 years which is an eternity in computing ? Browsers havent supported plugins for over 10.

      Do you maybe think you are 20 years late ?

      8 2 Reply
      1. Fred Daggy Silver badge
        Reply Icon
        Angel

        Re: Why still using Java of any kind?

        I thought so too. But then, just when you think you've got rid of the last JRE, another department complains their critical supplier website stops working. Sometimes a bank, sometimes inventory, government web sites (especially taxes).

        I'm still sure there are some web sites (well hidden by a shadow IT), that still use ActiveX and/or only work under IE6 from some of our vendors.

        BOFH notes : Best way to ferret these things out is to promise the department Macs and say they must use a single Mac Mini to test critical workflows. Then they come back with both the problems, and often the solutions as well. BOFH in me has so far refused to approve a purchase order for said Macs .... but they are authorised. "Next purchase cycle ... next purchase cycle ... when the pub offers free beer ... when politicians stop lying ..."

        Die applets, die. Just someone strike a steak through the heart and go.

        3 0 Reply
        1. m4r35n357 Silver badge
          Reply Icon

          Re: Why still using Java of any kind?

          Is steak _that_ bad for your heart ? ;)

          4 0 Reply
        2. CowHorseFrog
          Reply Icon

          Re: Why still using Java of any kind?

          Any browser that loads plugins will be over 10 years old. Those old browsers wouldnt care about the latest JRE.

          0 2 Reply
  9. Herring`

    Oracle as innovator

    To be fair to them, Oracle has hated its customers and has been making their lives worse way before Amazon, Meta, Virgin Media et al jumped on the bandwagon.

    11 0 Reply
    1. Scene it all
      Reply Icon

      Re: Oracle as innovator

      It was not any fun being an employee there either.

      8 0 Reply
  10. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Almost justifies Oracle's case

    > "How much have we actually got? Where is it? It's a process of discovery,"

    This practically justifies Oracle's whole stance. If you can't say where it is, how much is being used -- then you definitely aren't (can't) properly counting who is using it.

    So Oracle made it easier: how many employees 'ya got?

    It's almost a slam-dunk, fixes licensing issues (it's hard for Oracle to audit all of your servers, access logs, permission grants, applications), and forces companies to come in line. What are the odds that a sales user *isn't* using _any_ of your java-based back-end software that you don't even know where it is? Like, None. If it's so spread out that you can't even say where it is, they're (almost) all using it somewhere, some-how.

    Even so, it's a great reason to stop supporting evil corporations, and get Oracle (in all its forms) out of your environment. Let evil corps die.

    5 0 Reply
  11. I Am Spartacus
    Flame

    Deja Vu

    Some many years ago I was PM on a project to collect data in a database, and use BI tools to create reports that would be distibuted to customers. As we only had six connections to the database was internally priced the Oracle licenses accordingly. Oracle informed us that not only would they use the number of clients, but would also include the number of people in those clients who saw the data, even if it was printed. The costs spiraled out of control.

    I was asked to look for an alternative and came up with using DB2 instead. IBM would give us the DB licenses if we used their consultants. As I needed a team anyway, whether I paid contractors or IBM made no difference.

    Oracle took this to our CTO. The Head of Oracle Europe told him that "We didn't have the balls to switch DB suppliers" and the price of over £3M would stand. Infront of him the CTO called me up on speaker phone and asked if I had the IBM quote in front of me. On being told it was on my desk, he instructed me to sign it immediately under his name, and also to inform all other non-completed projected that they too would switch to DB2 with immediate effect. I heard him then turn to the Oracle VP and say "I think you can go now".

    RESULT!

    14 0 Reply
  12. Wang Cores Silver badge

    Deal with the devil...

    And then be surprised when he sticks a pitchfork up your ass.

    2 0 Reply
  13. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Minecraft

    Doesn't Minecraft use Java or openjdk?

    1 0 Reply
    1. CowHorseFrog
      Reply Icon

      Re: Minecraft

      It shouldnt matter, nobody in their right mine would require oracle jdk. MS isnt that stupid.

      0 2 Reply
  14. xyz123 Silver badge

    Java is ancient, unwieldy and useless.

    PLUS apparently they wanted over £500,000,000 A YEAR from the UK government just for Java licenses. So the government has abandoned Java development 100% and is switching to alternatives!

    Lord knows how much they've tried to bill the US government. gotta be 3-4x that easy.

    0 0 Reply

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